LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #45 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: APOINTOFFAITH on Late May, last year

Leon am so sorry to read your last post, as you seemed to really believe in what you believe and therefore give of that belief. But to shoehorn what someone says into a doctrinal position (also manmade) is stereotyping of the worst kind. I am not a Charismatic or Armenian, I simply follow Christ. What I espouse is my understanding through my human filter—as we all do. My admonishment to others has always been "find out for yourself" to study, to know, to have a real, tangible relationship with Christ, and our heavenly Father.

You may find comfort in being a "Calvinist" et al, I find comfort in being God's kid, and a brother in, and through, Christ. God does not fit into any box, neither does my faith. Be as dismissive and stereotypical as you wish, but you only show your own human filter, and it's shortcomings. We all fall short, but when we embrace Christ, on HIS terms, we are free, and he who the son sets free is free indeed! Casusal words? Hardly. The truths between the covers of the Word of God give us life. Man goes to the grave, and for a time his words may out live him, but God's words are LIFE, and bring everlasing salvation to all who have "ears to hear".

There will always be differences in understanding, just as there are differences in mankind itself. But there are no differences in the Word of God—only our understanding of it. These are the things that endure, these are the truths that change us into His Image, these are the life-giving tenets of faith that redeems us and grants us, in His mercy and Grace, adoption to the inheritance of Christ.

No manmade doctrine can do THAT....

Blessings,

Jonathan

Quote from: LEONMARTIN on Late May, last year

Quote

Cessationalism, dispensationalism, OSAS, TULIP et al, are ALL manmade constructs and fall short of the enduring, infallible word of God.

Yup, same as the Charismatic movement and Armenianism.

Jonathon,

You are sadly mistaken about me, my friend. I believe the Bible, nothing more. I think Calvinism and Armenianism fall short in some areas. I do lean more toward Calvin's beliefs, but do not believe the whole concept. I think both are man's poor attempt to explain God.

My post was a reminder that if you are going to discount some of these things as being man made, you should discount all of them. Man is the one who developed all these doctrines, they are all our interpretations of the Bible. Just because you do not agree with one, does not mean it is not true. It would seem that it is okay for you to say someone's belief is man made, but you take exception when it is said to you.

You may not believe this, but I agree with the Charismatics on several issues.

Blessings,
Leon


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LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #46 on: Late May, last year »

I seem to remember Jesus being called Rabbi and teacher all through the NT, but more than that we are told that it was His habit to go into the temple and read the scrolls aloud every Sabbath. This was a thing reserved for only trained Rabbis.

As for the attire, if you do a study of the OT, you will find where they were ordered to wear these garments. It was a Mosaic law. For Jesus not to be wearing one would have been in violation of the law. We know Jesus was perfect, so therefore He must have been wearing one.

As for Rabbis being only Pharisees or Sadducees, you need to study the Biblical history a little better. These were two sects that believed a certain way. A Rabbi could be either, or neither. He just had to have formal training under a master.

You do not have to believe the story, either way it is a wonderful testimony to God's grace.

I was actually surprised that more had not heard this story from the perspective I gave. It is not something new. I have even heard some of it on the faith TV stations.

HW,

I knew what you were asking, but ran on so I could make a point. Please forgive me for the confusion. I wanted to get the difference out there and should have chosen a different way to do it

Blessings,
Leon


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APOINTOFFAITH

Be the light in the darkness
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 10
Age: 52
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 320

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #47 on: Late May, last year »

You had called me an Armenian once before, but I was talking about your post in which you DID call yourself a Calvinist "...so that there will be more Calvinists on this site than just me and Mandal" (I paraphrase). With all that said I agree totally with what you wrote in the last post:

"My post was a reminder that if you are going to discount some of these things as being man made, you should discount all of them. Man is the one who developed all these doctrines, they are all our interpretations of the Bible. Just because you do not agree with one, does not mean it is not true. It would seem that it is okay for you to say someone's belief is man made, but you take exception when it is said to you.

You may not believe this, but I agree with the Charismatics on several issues.

Blessings,
Leon"

I don't take exception but rather offer clarification. I do discount all of them. I agree with the Bible (as you do as well, by your own words) and if someone who does follow manmade doctrinal positions agrees as well, then we are in agreement.

Blessings,

Jonathan


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"Truth is not relative; only our position to it..." J.D. Payne
http://theenochcovenant.com

HISWARRIOR

HISWARRIOR
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 88
Age: 47
Location: NY
Posts: 2542

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #48 on: Late May, last year »

It's all good; I just go a bit alarmed when you maybe thought I meant that any of us could actually heal someone or save someone.

Glad that is cleared up.

You did just fine; perhaps I would have been better off addressing this to you in a personal email.

I was not trying to "call you out" or anything, I just wanted to know what you thought, nevertheless, this I should have done privately, then maybe I would not have been "chastised" lol.

Blessings my friend, it's all good.......

HW,

I knew what you were asking, but ran on so I could make a point. Please forgive me for the confusion. I wanted to get the difference out there and should have chosen a different way to do it

Blessings,
Leon
[/quote]


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If we are not like the Christ we profess to be;

Then we are not qualified to possess the heart which is........

GOD'S PROMISES FOR MY LIFE ARE GREATER THAN ANYTHING I CAN SEE;

THEREFORE I LIVE BY FAITH AND NOT BY SIGHT. (THANK YOU LORD).

HISWARRIOR

HISWARRIOR
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 88
Age: 47
Location: NY
Posts: 2542

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #49 on: Late May, last year »

Johnathon;

I well understand what a Calvanist is, but what is an Armenian? I have heard the term of course, but I do not know what they believe really.

Can you tell a bit?

Quote from: APOINTOFFAITH on Late May, last year


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SALTNLITE

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 7
Posts: 315

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #50 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: LEONMARTIN on Late May, last year

I do know that Pharisees or Sadducess were not the only sect, I was giving examples. And yes, Jesus is called 'rabbi,' or teacher, throughout the NT, although he did admonish others not to be called that (Matthew 23:8-10). I have also studied and read the OT and know the garment laws, but I was never taught that Jesus followed them.

I would be interested in some scripture that mentions this, though. I understand it's off-topic, but I would appreciate it. Thank you, brother!

Salt


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KEEPER

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 27
Age: 51
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1486

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #51 on: Late May, last year »

Example: John 19:23-24. Jesus tunic was "seamless, woven in one piece." This is a very difficult garment to make. The preists wore them (and perhaps some weathly people). You can see one on display at the Temple Treasures collection in Jerusalem. The whole thing is one continuous weave, including sleeves and "frog clasps" near the neckline. Amazing piece of work.

All Orthodox Jews (even today) wear a garment with the knotted tassles that represent the 613 laws of Moses. Prayer shawls are also made with the 613 knots, and that's why you sometimes see a Jewish man kiss the tassles of his prayer shawl as he recites prayers.


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by KEEPER »	Logged

LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #52 on: Late May, last year »

Quote

You did just fine; perhaps I would have been better off addressing this to you in a personal email.

I don't know about that HW, those cute pictures of you can be pretty distracting. LOL.

But maybe if you were sitting across from me in a restaurant, with a band playing nice music, and a dance floor, we could work all of this out without any hard feelings....what do you think?

Blessings,
Leon


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by LEONMARTIN »	Logged

APOINTOFFAITH

Be the light in the darkness
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 10
Age: 52
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 320

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #53 on: Late May, last year »

Crystal some definitions and history:

"In 301 A.D. the king Tiridates established christianity as a sole religion of Armenia. Armenia becomes the first christian nation and the inhabitants were accordingly known as Armenian christian. Christians of Armenia are a joyful disciples of Christ.

The nature and characteristics of the paganism preceded Christianity in Armenia. Until the 5th century, Christian worship of Armenian christian was conducted in Greek or Syriac. Armenian Christianity survived in AD 484.

The Armenian Church traditionally maintained two patriarchates: one in Jerusalem and another in Istanbul for christians in Armenia. But the Holy Etchmiadzin remains the central spiritual authority for millions of Armenian christians living in diaspora communities around the globe.

Armenin christianity was first introduced by the apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus in the first century AD. Traditionally, the Armenian c3hurch recognizes the Catholicos of All Armenians as the leader of Armenian christians. Thus Armenian christians began to practice christianity. In regard to this many churches and monasteries were erected in Armenia.

About 94 percent of Armenians consider themselves to be Armenian christians who have derived their faith directly from Christ's apostles. The christian faith has shaped Armenian culture so intimately that it percolates the very landscape at virtually every corner of the country."

Armenianism by faith or doctrine - church identity:

An autonomous Christian church established in Armenia in the fourth century A.D. It differs from other Eastern churches in professing a form of Monophysitism.

The Armenian Apostolic Church has a long and ancient history. Its received tradition remembers the apostolic preaching of Saint Bartholomew and Saint Thaddeus among the Armenians of Edessa and surrounding territories. It is likely that there were Armenian Christians from early times, such that Saint Gregory the Illuminator, in the fourth century, who worked among people who had previous contact with Christianity. The Armenian Church celebrates the year 301 as the time when Gregory converted King Trdat. The king, in turn, made Christianity the state religion. There is disagreement among scholars about this date. It should also be remembered that the idea of Christianity as state religion was an innovation at that time.

Events of the fifth century were critical to the making of a distinctively Armenian Christian culture and identity. The foremost of these was the invention of the Armenian alphabet by the monk Mesrob Mashtots and his community. Translations of scripture, commentaries, liturgy, theology, and histories were made. Greek and Syriac literature were important sources. In addition, the fifth century witnessed the first flowering of original Armenian literature. An example is Eznik Koghbatsi's doctrinal work, Refutation of the Sects. The Battle of Avarayr in 451 against Persia, although a defeat for the Armenians under Vartan, has been remembered as critical for winning the Armenians the right to practice their Christian belief.

The fact that the Armenians eventually rejected the Christology of the Council of Chalcedon (451) has defined their communion with the Oriental Orthodox churches and their schism from the Orthodox churches that grew out of Constantinople (that is, the Orthodox churches of the Greeks, Georgians, and Russians, among others). The dispute concerned the way in which the natures of Christ were properly described. The Armenian Church believed that the language of Chalcedon, defining the person of Jesus Christ as "in two natures," destroyed the unity of divinity and humanity in Christ.

Throughout much of its history, the Armenian Orthodox Church has been an instrument of the Armenian nation's survival. The head of the church, called catholicos, has been located in various Armenian cities, often in the center of political power. In the early twenty-first century the supreme catholicos is located in the city of Echmiadzin, near the Armenian capital, Yerevan. Another catholicos, descended from the leaders of Sis in Cilicia, is located in Lebanon. During the existence of Cilician Armenia (from the eleventh to fourteenth centuries), when Crusaders were present in the Middle East, the Armenian Church had close ties with Rome. Nerses Shnorhali, known as "the Graceful" (1102 - 1173), was an important catholicos of this period.

The Armenian Church played a significant role in the succession of Muslim empires in which its faithful were located. Because some of these were divided according to religious affiliation, the leaders of the Armenian were, in fact, also politically responsible for their communities. The Armenian Church was greatly affected by two phenomenon in the twentieth century: the genocide in Turkey, in which 1.5 million died, and the Sovietization of eastern Armenia, which ushered in seven decades of official atheism. The genocide essentially destroyed the church in Turkey, where only a remnant remains. It has also profoundly affected the way in which the Armenian Church approaches the idea of suffering in this world.

The church thrived in many parts of the Armenian diaspora, and is regaining its strength in newly independent Armenia. In the post-Soviet period, the church has struggled to define itself in society, having to overcome the decades of persecution and neglect, as well as making adjustments in a political culture in which it is favored but must still coexist in an officially pluralistic society.

The liturgy of the Armenian Church (the eucharistic service is called patarag) with Syriac and Greek roots, has been vastly enriched by the hymnody of Armenian writers. Contact with Rome has also been important in this context. Armenians, preserving an ancient Eastern tradition, celebrate Christmas and Epiphany together on January 6.

Armenian Church, autonomous Christian church, sometimes also called the Gregorian Church. Its head, a primate of honor only, is the catholicos of Yejmiadzin, Armenia; Karekin II became catholicos in 1999. His rule is shared by the patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople and by the catholicos of Sis (Cilicia).

In general, Armenian practices resemble those of other Eastern churches; the priests may marry and communion is distributed in both bread and wine, although the use of unleavened bread is a Western practice. The liturgical language is classical Armenian. Armenia became Christian at the end of the 3d cent. through the missionary work of St. Gregory the Illuminator. In the next century the young church made itself autonomous, apparently because of the efforts of the metropolitan bishop of Caesarea, St. Basil the Great, to impose certain reforms.

After the Council of Chalcedon the Armenians rejected the orthodox position; this adoption, at least tacit, of Monophysitism completed the isolation of the Armenian Church from the rest of Christendom. Part of the Armenian Church reunited with Rome temporarily in the 13th and 14th cent., and missionary work by the Roman Church in the 14th cent. resulted in many converts. In 1740 the Catholic Armenian rite was officially organized, in communion with the pope but under its own patriarch. Today there are Armenian churches in every continent.

Various legends tie the origin of the Armenian Church to the Apostles. Apostolic succession is an important concept for many churches, especially those in the east. The legend of the healing of Abgar V of Edessa by the facecloth of Jesus has been appropriated by the Armenian Church by claiming that Abgar was a prince of Armenia.[5] The more common tradition claims that Thaddeus, one of the Seventy Apostles was sent to Armenia from nearby Edessa by Abgar (uncle of King Sanatrook of Armenia) to evangelize. The details of the story vary widely, but in all stories Thaddeus converted Sandookdht, the king's daughter. In some versions Sanatrook was also converted, but later apostasized. In other versions, he was never converted, but was always hostile to Christianity. In any case, Sanatrook martyred both Thaddeus and Sandookdht. Some versions have the apostle Bartholomew arriving in Armenia about the same time to also be martyred.[6] Though these stories are considered historically questionable by modern scholars, the church in Armenia had to have begun early as persecutions against Christians in 110, 230, and 287 were recorded by outside writers Eusebius and Tertullian.[7]

The Kingdom of Armenia was the first state to adopt Christianity as its religion [8] when St. Gregory the Illuminator converted King Tiridates III and members of his court,[9] an event traditionally dated to AD 301 (after Mikayel Chamchian 1784) though now believed by most scholars to have occurred somewhat later, but by 314.[10] Gregory, trained and ordained in Christianity at Caesarea returned to his native land to preach about 287, the same time that Tiridates III took the throne.

Tiridates owed his position to the Roman Emperor Diocletian, a noted persecutor of Christianity. In addition, he became aware that Gregory was a son of Anak, the man who assassinated his father. Consequently Tiridates imprisoned Gregory in an underground pit, called Khor Virap, for 13 years. In 301, 37 Christian virgins, fleeing Roman persecution, came to Armenia. Tiridates desired one of them, Rhipsime, to be his wife, but she turned him down. In a rage, he martyred the whole group of them. Soon afterward, according to legend, God struck him with an illness that left him crawling around like a beast. The story is reminiscent of Nebudchadnezzar in Daniel 4. Xosroviduxt, the king’s sister, had a dream in which she was told that the persecution of Christians must stop. She related this to Tiridates, who released Gregory from prison. Gregory then healed Tiridates and converted him to Christianity.

Tiridates immediately declared Armenia to be a Christian nation, becoming the first official Christian state.

Tiridates declared Gregory to be the first Catholicos of the church and sent him to Caesarea to be consecrated. Upon his return, Gregory tore down idol centers, built churches and monasteries, and ordained hundreds of priests and bishops. While meditating in the old capital city of Vagharshapat, Gregory had a vision of Christ coming down to the earth to strike it with a hammer. From the spot rose a great Christian temple with a huge cross. He was convinced that God wanted him to build the main Armenian church there. With the king's help, he did so, along the lines of what he saw in the vision at the spot he saw the hammer strike. He renamed the city Etchmiadzin which means "the place of the descent of the only-begotten".[11]

Initially the Armenian church participated in the larger church world. Its Catholicos was represented at the First Council of Nicea and the First Council of Constantinople. Although he could not attend the Council of Ephesus, the Catholicos Isaac Parthiev sent a message agreeing with its decisions.[12] The Armenian Church began to retreat from the larger church world in 373 when King Pap appointed Catholicos Yusik without first sending him to Caesarea for commissioning.[13]

Christianity was strengthened in Armenia by the translation of the Bible into the Armenian language by the Armenian theologian, monk, and scholar St. Mesrob Mashtots. Until the fifth century, Armenia had its own spoken language, but it was not written. The Bible and liturgy were in Greek. The Catholicos Sahak commissioned Mesrob to create an Armenian alphabet, which he completed in 406. Subsequently the Bible and liturgy were translated into Armenian and written down in its new script. This began a cultural renaissance with the production of a host of Armenian literature.[14]

Unlike other Eastern Churches, the Armenian Bible originally had 39 books in the Old Testament. What are commonly called the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical books were not translated until the 8th century and not read in the churches until the 12th century.[15]

Miaphysitism Vs Monophysitism

Historically, the Armenian Church has been referred to as monophysite by both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians because it (as well as all Oriental Orthodox Churches) rejected the decisions of the Council of Chalcedon, which condemned the belief of one incarnate nature of Christ (monophysis). The Armenian Church officially severed ties with Rome and Constantinople in 554, during the second Council of Dvin where the dyophysite formula of the Council of Chalcedon was rejected due to its acceptance by Nestorians.

However, the Armenian Orthodox Church argues that this is an incorrect description of its position, as it considers Monophysitism, as taught by Eutyches and condemned at Chalcedon, a heresy and only disagrees with the formula defined by the Council of Chalcedon. The Armenian Church instead adheres to the doctrine defined by Cyril of Alexandria, considered as a saint by the Chalcedonian Churches as well, who described Christ as being of one incarnate nature, where both divine and human nature are united (miaphysis). To distinguish this from Eutychian and other versions of Monophysitism this position is called miaphysitism. Whereas the prefix "mono" refers to a singular one, the prefix "mia" refers to a compound one.

In recent times, both Chalcedonian and anti-Chalcedonian churches have developed a deeper understanding for each other's positions, recognizing their substantial agreement while maintaining their respective theological language. Hence, the "Monophysite" label is avoided when describing the Oriental Orthodox belief of the Armenian Church regarding the Nature of Christ.

The Armenian Apostolic Church, is the central religious authority for Armenian Orthodox population in the Republic of Armenia as well as for Armenian Orthodox communities worldwide.

It is headed by a Catholicos (the plural is Catholicoi). Although it is traditional in Eastern churches for the supreme head of the church to be named Patriarch, in the Armenian Apostolic Church hierarchy, the position of the Catholicos is higher than that of the Patriarch. The Armenian Apostolic Church presently has two catholicoi (His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians; and Aram I,Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia), and two patriarchs, plus Primates, Archbishops and Bishops, lower clergy and laity serving the church.

The Catholicos of All Armenians represents the centralized authority of the Armenian Church. He is the supreme judge and the head of the legislative body. He is President of the Supreme Spiritual Council as well as the College of Bishops. Ordination of bishops, blessing of Holy Chrism, proclamation of Feasts, invitation and dismissal of National-Ecclesiastical Assemblies, issuing decrees concerning the administration of the Armenian Church and establishing dioceses are part of his responsibilities.

Both clergy and lay are involved in the administrative structure of the Church. Led by His Holiness Karekin II, the spiritual and administrative work of the Armenian Church is carried out in the Republic of Armenia in the areas of Religion, Preparation of Clergy, Christian Education, Construction of new Churches, Social Services, and Ecumenical activities. Underneath this administrative structure are the hierarchal Sees:

The Catholicosate of the Great House of Cilicia located in Antelias, Lebanon, is a regional See with current jurisdiction of the Dioceses of Lebanon, Syria and Cyprus as temporarily granted to her by the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem in 1929, is led by Catholicos Aram I.


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"Truth is not relative; only our position to it..." J.D. Payne
http://theenochcovenant.com

APOINTOFFAITH

Be the light in the darkness
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 10
Age: 52
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 320

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #54 on: Late May, last year »

The Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem which has jurisdiction over all of the Holy Lands and the Diocese of Jordan, is led by Patriarch Archbishop Torgom Manoogian.

The Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople and All of Turkey, which has jurisdiction in the modern day Republic of Turkey, is led by Patriarch Archbishop Mesrob Mutafyan.

The three historic aforementioned hierarchal sees administer to the Dioceses under their jurisdiction as they see fit, however, the supremacy of the Catholicosate of All Armenians in all spiritual matters remains pre-eminent.

In addition to the responsibilities of overseeing their respective Dioceses, each hierarchical See, and the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, has a Monastic Brotherhood.

Seminaries

The Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin operates two seminaries, the Gevorkian Theological Seminary at the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, and the Vaskenian Theological Academy at Lake Sevan. Over a 6 year course of simultaneous study, students receive both a Bachelors degree and a Masters degree in Theology. The Great House of Cilicia operates one seminary, the Seminary of Antelias at Bikfaya, Lebanon. Upon graduation, students receive the equivalent of a high school diploma and pre-graduate theological study. The Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem operates the St. Tarkmanchatz School (high school diploma) and the Theological Seminary of the Patriarchate (pre-graduate study). The Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople has suspended the operation of their seminary, Holy Cross Patriarchal Seminary, since 1971.

Structure

Regionally, each area of the world where the Armenian Church and faithful are located has Dioceses, which are led by a Primate from the Diocesan Headquarters. Each Diocese is made up of Parishes and communities.

The spiritual and administrative bodies representing the authority of the Armenian Church are the following:

The National Ecclesiastical Assembly is the supreme legislative body presided over by the Catholicos of All Armenians. The members of the National Ecclesiastical Assembly are elected by the individual Diocesan Assemblies. The National Ecclesiastical Assembly elects the Catholicos of All Armenians.

The Council of Bishops is an administrative-deliberative body presided over by the Catholicos of All Armenians. It makes suggestions on the dogmatic, religious, church, parish and canonical issues to be discussed as agenda items during the National Ecclesiastical Assembly.

The Supreme Spiritual Council is the highest executive body of the Armenian Church and is presided over by the Catholicos of All Armenians. The members of the Council can be elected by the National Ecclesiastical Assembly or appointed by the Catholicos of All Armenians. The Catholicos of All Armenians, His Holiness Gevorg V. Soorenian established the Supreme Spiritual Council on January 1, 1924, to replace the Synod of Bishops.

The Diocesan Assembly is the highest legislative (canonical) body of each Diocese and is headed by the Primate of the Diocese. The Diocesan delegates (representatives of each parish community) elect the delegates to the National Ecclesiastical Assembly, the members of the Diocesan Council as well as discuss and decide on administrative issues within the Diocese such as committees, budgets, building, etc. In some Dioceses, the Diocesan Assembly elects the Primate of the Diocese.

The Diocesan Council is the highest executive power of a diocese, presided over by the Primate of the Diocese. It regulates the inner administrative activity of the Diocese under the direction of the Primate. The Diocesan Assembly elects members of the Diocesan Council.

The Monastic Brotherhood consists of the celibate clergy of the monastery who are led by the Abbot. At present, there are three brotherhoods in the Armenian Church - the brotherhood of the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, the brotherhood of St. James at the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the brotherhood of the See of Cilicia. Each Armenian celibate priest becomes a member of the brotherhood in which he has studied and ordained in or under the jurisdiction of which he has served. The brotherhood makes decisions concerning the inner affairs of the monastery. Each brotherhood elects two delegates who take part in the National Ecclesiastical Assembly.

The Parish Assembly is the general assembly of the community presided over by the spiritual pastor. The Parish Assembly elects or appoints the members of the Parish Council and the representatives or delegates to the Diocesan Assembly.

The Parish Council is the executive-administrative body of the community. It is presided over by the spiritual pastor of the community who takes up the inner administrative affairs of the parish and is engaged in the realization of its administrative and financial activities. Members of the Parish Council are elected or appointed at the Parish Assembly.

The Armenian Apostolic Church is one of a few apostolic churches in the world to have a democratic system; the people decide if they want to keep priests in their churches and may ask for different ones, as do some other ecclesiastical constitutions, such as Baptists and other Congregational churches.

Note that the Armenian Apostolic Church should not be confused, however, with the Armenian Catholic Church whose Patriarch-Catholicos (of the Armenian Catholic Rite) is Nerses Bedros XIX, which is an Eastern Catholic church in communion with the Holy See in Rome.

Two Catholicossates
The Armenian Apostolic Church currently has two Sees, with the Catholicos of All Armenians residing in Etchmiadzin, Armenia, at the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, having pre-eminent supremacy in all spiritual matters over the See of Cilicia, located in Antelias, Lebanon, which administers to the Dioceses under its jurisdiction as they see fit. The two Sees are as follows:

Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin
The Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin (Armenian: Մայր Աթոռ Սուրբ Էջմիածին ) is the spiritual and administrative headquarters of the worldwide Armenian Church, the center of the faith of the Armenian nation – the Mother Cathedral of the Armenian Church, and the Pontifical residence of His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians. The Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin is a blend of the past, present and future of the worldwide Armenian Church.

Preserving the past are the numerous museums, libraries and the Mother Cathedral itself, all holding a vast richness of history and treasures. The Mother See is responsible for the preservation of artifacts, both those created by the Church and those given to the church as gifts over time.

Carrying on the work of the present and future are the innumerable departments and programs of the Armenian Church. Under the leadership and guidance of His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, the Mother See administers to social, cultural and educational programs for Armenia and the Diaspora.

The Mother Cathedral, founded by the Descent of Christ, has stood as a symbol against time of the Armenian faith, nation and people. The Cathedral is the most recognized landmark of the Armenian Church. Built and consecrated by St. Gregory the Illuminator and St. Trdat the Great in AD 303, the Cathedral is located in the city of Vagharshapat.

St. Gregory chose the location of the Cathedral in accordance with a vision that he had. In his dream he saw "Miatsin", the Only Begotten Son of God, with glittering light on his face descending from the Heavens and with a golden hammer striking the ground where the Cathedral was to be located. Hence comes the name "Etchmiadzin", which translates literally to "the place" where the Only-Begotten Son of God descended.

The Mother Cathedral is open to the faithful everyday from 7:30 a.m. until 8:00 p.m. Divine Liturgy is celebrated every Sunday starting at 11:00 a.m., except on Feast Days or special occasions when it starts at 10:30 a.m. Morning services are conducted starting at 7:30 a.m. Monday through Saturday and at 8:00 a.m. on Sunday. Evening Services are conducted at 5:30 p.m. every day.

Great House of Cilicia
The Catholicosate of the Great House of Cilicia (Armenian: Կաթողիկոսութիւն Հայոց Մեծի Տանն Կիլիկիոյ ) located in Antelias, Lebanon, is a regional See of the Armenian Apostolic Church and is an autonomous church mostly related to certain segments of the Armenian diaspora.

Catholicos Aram I is the current head and Catholicos of the Holy See of Cilicia. The church has current jurisdiction of Dioceses and Prelacies in Lebanon, Syria and Cyprus, Greece, Iran, the Arab Gulf, United States, Canada and Venezuela. [16] In the United States and Canada, there are also Prelacies and Dioceses that are related to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, thus duality of representation of Armenian Apostolic churches in these two countries.

The primacy of honor of the Catholicossate of Etchmiadzin (Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin) has always been recognized by the Catholicosate of Great House of Cilicia.

Historic presentation of the Holy See of Cilicia as an autocephalous church is as follows: After the fall of Ani and the Armenian Kingdom of Bagradits in 1045, masses of Armenians migrated to Cilicia. The Catholicossate, together with the people, settled there. The seat of the church (now known as The Catholicossate of the Great House of Cilicia) was first established in Sivas (AD 1058) moving to Tavbloor (1062), then to Dzamendav (1066), Dzovk (1116), Hromgla (1149), and finally in Sis (1293), the capital of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.

After the fall of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, in 1375, the Church also assumed the role of national leadership, and the Catholicos was recognized as Ethnarch (Head of Nation).

In 1441, a new Catholicos was elected in St. Etchmiadzin in the person of Kirakos I Virapetsi of Armenia. At the same time residing Catholicos in Sis Gregory IX Mousabegian (1439-1446) remained as Catholicos of Cilicia. Therefore, since 1441, there have been two Catholicossates in the Armenian Church with equal rights and privileges, and with their respective jurisdictions. The city of Sis (modern-day Kozan, Adana, Turkey) was the center of the Catholicossate of the Great House of Cilicia for more than 6 centuries starting 1293, when the Catholicossate moved from Hromgla to Sis.

In the First World War, most notably in 1915 with the onset of the Armenian Genocide, the Armenian population and the monastery of St. Sophia of Sis, home of the Catholicossate (which dominated the town in early 20th century photographs) was destroyed.[17] The last residing Catholicos in Sis was Sahag II of Cilicia (Catholicos from 1902 to 1939). Sahak II followed his Armenian flock in exile from Turkey.

Since 1930, the Catholicosate of the Great House of Cilicia (also known as Holy See of Cilicia) has been headquartered in Antelias, Lebanon.

Reasons for the division

The divisions of the two Catholicossates stem from frequent relocations of the Church headquarters because of political and military upheavals.

The schism was further reinforced during the period in which Armenia was part of the Soviet Union when various churches affiliated with one of the two Holy Sees of the church.

Despite efforts of reunion, the division continues to date, although significantly, in the nineties, Karekin II Catholicos of Cilicia for the period 1983-1994, was elected upon the death of Vazgen I, as new Catholicos of All Armenians in 1995 becoming Karekin I Catholicos of All Armenians residing in the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin and serving as Supreme head of the church until 1999. He was not able however to unite the two Catholicossates despite having headed both.

Two Patriarchates: Constantinople and Jerusalem

The Armenian Apostolic Church also has two Patriarchates of high authority both under the jurisdiction of the Catholicos of All Armenians. They are:

Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem (Armenian: Առաքելական Աթոռ Սրբոց Յակովբեանց Յերուսաղեմ literally Apostolic See of St. James in Jerusalem)in the Armenian Quarter of Jerusalem headed by the Patriarch of Jerusalem, Archbishop Torkom Manoogian

Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople in Istanbul, Turkey (Armenian: Պատրիարքութիւն Հայոց Կոստանդնուպոլսոյ) headed since 1998 by Patriarch of Constantinople Archbishop Mesrob II Mutafyan

Similarities to other churches

Liturgically speaking, the Church has much in common both with the Latin rite in its externals, especially as it was at the time of separation, as well as with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. For example, their bishops wear mitres almost identical to those of Western bishops. They usually do not use a full iconostasis, but rather a curtain (which was also used in the West at the time of separation). The liturgical music is Armenian chant.

Armenian priests below the rank of bishop are allowed to be married before ordination and their descendants' surnames are prepended with the prefix "Ter" (or "Der" in Western Armenian), meaning "Lord", to indicate their lineage.

Armenian Apostolic Communities in Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh

In the 1930s all functioning religious institutions in Karabakh were closed down. The Armenian Apostolic Church resumed its activities in Karabakh in 1989 and, over the next 20 years, more than 30 churches were restored or constructed. In 2009 the NKR government introduced a law title "On freedom of conscience and religious organizations", article 8 of which stated that only the Armenian Apostolic Church is allowed to preach on the territory of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. [18]

Armenian Apostolic Communities in the World

Today there are large Armenian Apostolic congregations in many countries outside Armenia, including Russia, Iraq, Georgia, France, the United States, Lebanon, Syria, Canada, Australia, Cyprus, Israel, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium, Egypt, Estonia, England, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Romania, Sweden, Switzerland, Argentina, Uruguay and others.

The Armenian presence in Israel is primarily to be found in the Armenian Quarter of Jerusalem and, in particular, in association with the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

Also of particular importance are the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople in Turkey and the Armenian Apostolic Church of Iran (see also Christians in Iran). These churches represent the largest Christian ethnic minority in both of these predominantly Muslim countries, Turkey and Iran.


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"Truth is not relative; only our position to it..." J.D. Payne
http://theenochcovenant.com

LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #55 on: Late May, last year »

HW,

I couldn't find much on the internet that didn't get ugly in their opinion, but Here is some info about the founder of Modern Armenianism.

Jacobus Arminius - (1560-1609), Dutch Reformed theologian
Jacobus Arminius (aka Jacob Arminius, James Arminius, and his Dutch name Jacob Harmenszoon) was a Dutch theologian, best known as the founder of the anti-Calvinistic school in Reformed Protestant theology, thereby lending his name to a movement which resisted some of the tenets of Calvinism - Arminianism. The early Dutch followers of Arminius' teaching were also called the Remonstrants, after they issued a document containing five points of disagreement with classic Calvinism, entitled Remonstrantice (1610).

Arminius became a professor of theology at Leiden in 1603, and remained there for the rest of his life. The theology of Arminianism was not fully developed during Arminius' time, but was systematized after his death and formalized in the Five articles of the Remonstrants in 1610. The works of Arminius (in Latin) were published at Leiden in 1629, and at Frankfort in 1631 and 1635. After his death the Synod of Dordrecht (1618-1619) judged his theology and its adherents anathemas and published the five points of Calvinism (later knows as TULIP) as a point-by-point response to the five points of the Arminian Remonstrants.

There is much more if you google his name, but I didn't want to post it here because of the tone of these sites.

Blessings,
Leon


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SALTNLITE

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 7
Posts: 315

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #56 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: KEEPER on Late May, last year

Thanks, Keeper, I did wonder why Jews kissed their shawls.

I thought the continuous garment was put on Jesus by the Roman soldiers to mock him after He was scourged... it was the purple robe (which only royalty was allowed to wear).

Leon said that in order to be called a rabbi, one had to study under a master, and yet when Jesus preached they asked Him whose authority He was preaching under. If Jesus had studied under a master, this question wouldn't have been asked. So I guess I'm still looking for some clarification.

Thank you, Keeper!
Salt'nLight

p.s. I make continuous garments myself... much easier with circular knitting needles!


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SKNNAB

Big Cheese
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 10
Age: 51
Location: Smack in the middle of Midwest USA.
Posts: 3939

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #57 on: Late May, last year »

Quote

but more than that we are told that it was His habit to go into the temple and read the scrolls aloud every Sabbath.

I've seen this comment posted several places lately, and I thought it might be helpful to clarify this.

Jesus did not go to the temple regularly. The temple was in Jerusalem.
There was only one temple.
It was a journey to get there.
A visit was a rarity.
It was a 2-3 day walk to get there from most of the areas he was ministering at.

Visits to Jerusalem and the temple were of significance: At 12 years old. The triumphant entry, Cleansing the temple, etc.

He probably went at least once a year for passover and possibly a few other times. But, it was not a weekly kind of thing.

What Jesus did regularly was go the the ~~tabernacle~~ synagogue. A ~~tabernacle~~ synagogue is like your local church. There were many of them, and he visited those often.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Carry on! [thumbup]


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by SKNNAB »	Logged

This is my signature.

LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #58 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: SALTNLITE on Late May, last year

Quote from: KEEPER on Late May, last year

They asked Him by whose authority He was teaching under because of what He was teaching, not because of who He was. This is fairly obvious from the context, but if you want to see a typical answer, look to Paul when he was giving his "foolish" answer in Romans. Not only does he mention the sect to which he belonged, but the teacher he sat under.

Jesus was a stranger to this area, so they wanted to know who gave Him permission to change doctrine. That is the context of the scripture that is given. We have to assume that Jesus sat under a teacher for several reasons, first, the age when He was found in the church saying, I had to be about my Father's business. 12. That is the age that Rabbis were given over to the temple for training and teaching. Next is the fact that He could read. This was almost exclusive to the clergy and very rich. Next we have the fact that He was in the habit of going to the tabernacle and reading to the people from the scrolls every Sabbath. (Clark is correct in his post)

It would seem a fairly safe assumption that He was trained as a Rabbi. Also, we know that people gathered to hear Him even before they knew Him, this was common with Rabbis.

Like I have already said, you can believe it or not, it is still a good story from either perspective.

Blessings,
Leon