KEEPER

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 27
Age: 51
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1486

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #60 on: Late May, last year »

I had typed this whole answer, and then the computer messed up again… aarrrrgggg!

If you’ve ever heard modern rabbis teach, they always quote previous rabbis. (It can get quite monotonous, really!) It is more like passing along the wisdom of the old sages, rather than interpreting or expounding on the Word of God. The teachings of the ancient rabbis are considered sacred and not to be contradicted. However, contemporary rabbis debate and contradict all they want. This is how the Talmud developed over time.

In Matthew 7:28-29, the people were amazed at the teaching of Jesus, and the comparison is made, that Jesus was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. (Also see John 7:40-41 ff.)

By the time we get to Matthew 21:23, the chief priests and elders had already rejected Jesus and declared that He does these things by the power of Beelzebub (Matt. 12). So it was pointless for them to ask about His authority after they had already made up their minds. Jesus knew their hearts. So Jesus did not answer their question directly (i.e. He gets his authority from God the Father! And He has already had this discussion with them earlier in His ministry, see John 5:36 ff), Jesus asked them the question about John the Baptist to “test” them. And they failed the test. Rather than admit that the source of John’s baptism was from heaven and humbly repent for their disbelief, they tried to save face by answering “We do not know.” Jesus didn’t give them the answer because their hearts were not open to the truth.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Clark is right that the one and only Temple was in Jerusalem.

I refer to the “tabernacle” as the tent which the Israelites carried with them thru the wilderness and used in Jerusalem until the Temple was built by Solomon.

There were various towns which had synagogues. The synagogue system was developed after the destruction of the First Temple when the Jews were taken away to captivity in foreign lands. When some of them returned to their Land, they brought the idea of a local synagogue with them, and unfortunately, sometimes brought pagan thought and customs with them, too. (For example, the synagogue in Tiberias, Galilee, which has a full Zodiac in mosaic tile across the entire floor; astrology forbidden by Mosaic Law.) Today, there are ruins of 1st century synagogues in the Galilee where Jesus read from the scroll - such as Capernaum. And of course, today, there is no Temple on the Temple Mount (just the Muslim Dome of the Rock and Alaqsa Mosque), so Jews meet in synagogues throughout Israel and other countries in the world.

The “church” is a term generally associated only with believers in Jesus, and unbelieving Jews would be offended if their synagogue were called a “church.”


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by KEEPER »	Logged

LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #61 on: Late May, last year »

Quote

Sure, I assume then that you are asking me to dinner??? AND dancing?Huh?Huh??

I can manage that............

While it will be months in the future, and I cannot give an exact date and time, you are making a safe assumption. That does give us plenty of time to hammer out the details.

Love and grace,
Leon


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HISWARRIOR

HISWARRIOR
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 88
Age: 47
Location: NY
Posts: 2542

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #62 on: Late May, last year »

You know what Leon, that totally works for me.

I'm not in any hurry to be sure.

Thank you for your kindness to me! wow.

Quote from: LEONMARTIN on Late May, last year

Quote

Sure, I assume then that you are asking me to dinner??? AND dancing?Huh?Huh??

I can manage that............

While it will be months in the future, and I cannot give an exact date and time, you are making a safe assumption. That does give us plenty of time to hammer out the details.

Love and grace,
Leon


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If we are not like the Christ we profess to be;

Then we are not qualified to possess the heart which is........

GOD'S PROMISES FOR MY LIFE ARE GREATER THAN ANYTHING I CAN SEE;

THEREFORE I LIVE BY FAITH AND NOT BY SIGHT. (THANK YOU LORD).

LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #63 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: HISWARRIOR on Late May, last year

You know what Leon, that totally works for me.

I'm not in any hurry to be sure.

Thank you for your kindness to me! wow.

Quote from: LEONMARTIN on Late May, last year

Quote

Sure, I assume then that you are asking me to dinner??? AND dancing?Huh?Huh??

I can manage that............

While it will be months in the future, and I cannot give an exact date and time, you are making a safe assumption. That does give us plenty of time to hammer out the details.

Love and grace,
Leon

Before you thank me too much, you should know that I am a typical male, so my reasons are mostly selfish. LOL. I just want to have dinner with you and have an excuse to hold you in my arms for a few hours. LOL. Of course a little extravagant flirting seems to be called for as well.

Love and grace,
Leon


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SKNNAB

Big Cheese
Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 10
Age: 51
Location: Smack in the middle of Midwest USA.
Posts: 3939

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #64 on: Late May, last year »

Quote

I refer to the “tabernacle” as the tent which the Israelites carried with them thru the wilderness and used in Jerusalem until the Temple was built by Solomon.

There were various towns which had synagogues.

Yes, Yes. My bad.
I meant to say synagogue.

Hey, want to hear something cool?

A tabernacle is a "portable temple." It mimics the real temple - the dwelling place of God.
And then, "know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you." 1 Corinthians 6:19

Your body is a tabernacle - a portable temple - the dwelling place of God.

Nice eh?

P.S. If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, seems logical that the Spirtual Gifts would be inside there doesn't it?


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by SKNNAB »	Logged

This is my signature.

KEEPER

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 27
Age: 51
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1486

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #65 on: Late May, last year »

Quote

If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, seems logic that the Spirtual Gifts would be inside there doesn't it?

Hey, good segue to get back to the original topic!


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LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #66 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: KEEPER on Late May, last year

Quote

If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, seems logic that the Spirtual Gifts would be inside there doesn't it?

Hey, good segue to get back to the original topic!

Oops, we did kind of hijack this thread. Sorry Walter.

Blessings,
Leon


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SALTNLITE

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 7
Posts: 315

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #67 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: KEEPER on Late May, last year

Wow! Great stuff. Thanks Keeper!


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SALTNLITE

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 7
Posts: 315

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #68 on: Late May, last year »

Quote from: LEONMARTIN on Late May, last year

Quote from: SALTNLITE on Late May, last year

Quote from: KEEPER on Late May, last year

Example: John 19:23-24. Jesus tunic was "seamless, woven in one piece." This is a very difficult garment to make. The preists wore them (and perhaps some weathly people). You can see one on display at the Temple Treasures collection in Jerusalem. The whole thing is one continuous weave, including sleeves and "frog clasps" near the neckline. Amazing piece of work.

All Orthodox Jews (even today) wear a garment with the knotted tassles that represent the 613 laws of Moses. Prayer shawls are also made with the 613 knots, and that's why you sometimes see a Jewish man kiss the tassles of his prayer shawl as he recites prayers.

Thanks, Keeper, I did wonder why Jews kissed their shawls.

I thought the continuous garment was put on Jesus by the Roman soldiers to mock him after He was scourged... it was the purple robe (which only royalty was allowed to wear).

Leon said that in order to be called a rabbi, one had to study under a master, and yet when Jesus preached they asked Him whose authority He was preaching under. If Jesus had studied under a master, this question wouldn't have been asked. So I guess I'm still looking for some clarification.

Thank you, Keeper!
Salt'nLight

p.s. I make continuous garments myself... much easier with circular knitting needles!

They asked Him by whose authority He was teaching under because of what He was teaching, not because of who He was. This is fairly obvious from the context, but if you want to see a typical answer, look to Paul when he was giving his "foolish" answer in Romans. Not only does he mention the sect to which he belonged, but the teacher he sat under.

Jesus was a stranger to this area, so they wanted to know who gave Him permission to change doctrine. That is the context of the scripture that is given. We have to assume that Jesus sat under a teacher for several reasons, first, the age when He was found in the church saying, I had to be about my Father's business. 12. That is the age that Rabbis were given over to the temple for training and teaching. Next is the fact that He could read. This was almost exclusive to the clergy and very rich. Next we have the fact that He was in the habit of going to the tabernacle and reading to the people from the scrolls every Sabbath. (Clark is correct in his post)

It would seem a fairly safe assumption that He was trained as a Rabbi. Also, we know that people gathered to hear Him even before they knew Him, this was common with Rabbis.

Like I have already said, you can believe it or not, it is still a good story from either perspective.

Blessings,
Leon

Leon, I know that I can believe anything or not. It's not a good story if it isn't true. I would like to know.

Twelve may have been the age at which boys were turned over to the rabbis for teaching, but this is not what happened as recorded in Luke.

Luke 2:41 His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. 43 When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it; 44 but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

His parents were there for Passover, not to drop Jesus off to be trained. In fact, when they couldn't find Him, they went back for Him! And the rabbis and onlookers were amazed at HIS knowledge. We are then told that He returned with His parents to Nazareth, not remaining in Jerusalem to be trained.

Jesus' reading of the scrolls was not preaching, just reading. John the Baptist was recorded as preaching as well.

I was taught that Jesus stayed with His earthly father until He began His ministry at thirty (Luke 3:1). If he had not been formally training, this would have made Him all the more miraculous as a rabbi, never mind a Messiah. Is there any other scripture that supports Jesus' formal training as a rabbi?

Thanks,
Salt and Light


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KEEPER

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 27
Age: 51
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1486

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #69 on: Late May, last year »

There is a prophetic passage that talks about God the Father waking Him up and teaching Him every morning. You'd think I'd know that ref by heart, but I don't. If I can find it, I'll let you know.


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SALTNLITE

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 7
Posts: 315

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #70 on: Late May, last year »

Thanks, Keeper!

That I believe. That makes sense. Of course, as Jesus WAS The Word before He became Christ, I would assume that He knew/knows everything, certainly during His time on earth. God invented language, God wrote the Law, surely Jesus would have no need of instruction.

The part that I had never heard was Jesus being trained by a human rabbi and therefore wearing mandatory Jewish garb. What would be the point of studying under a human rabbi? And what would He be doing wearing traditional religious garb if He wanted to set Himself apart from the human rabbis of the day?

Salt'nLight


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KEEPER

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 27
Age: 51
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1486

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #71 on: Late May, last year »

Still haven't had time to look for that Scripture (might be in Isaiah... hmmm....)

Anyway, yes, Jesus is the Word. In fact, the first 18 verses of John, written for Jewish readers, fits beautifully with the Jewish theology of the Word (the Memra) as they understood from the Old Testament. Here are a half a dozen teachings about the Memra:

1. The Memra is the same as God, yet distinct from God
2. The Memra was the agent of creation
3. The Memra brought physical and spiritual salvation
4. The Memra was the means of God's visible presence, the Shekinah
5. The Memra was the agent of revelation
6. By His Memra, God signed and sealed covenants

So you see, Jesus is all these things! The Jewish understanding is so much deeper and more detailed than just translating the Greek "logos" as "word" to mean "the expression of God."

Another passage I love is where the woman is caught in adultry, and Jesus stoops down and writes in the dust with His finger. The construction of the sentence puts "finger" as the primary word -- With His finger, He wrote.... A clear reminder of the Ten Commandments being written by the FINGER of God. And those men had thrown her down there in front of Him to see how Jesus would "interpret" the Mosaic Law! HA HA HA HA! If they only knew!

I don't know the customs of the the 1st century regarding basic education, such as reading - probably taught at home; not sure. When Jewish boys turn 12 (or 13 nowdays), they are considered a "man" and they may join the men for prayer, worship, reading Torah, etc. - that's what a Bar Mitzvah is all about. At that age, Jesus would have been included in these things with the men. As any Jewish man, He would have been brought up in the traditions of Judaism. There is no Scriptural evidence that Jesus was ever discipled by a particular rabbi. In fact, we know He was a carpenter, so He probably didn't go off to a "rabbinical school." And you've got to be careful of wild speculations that He traveled to INDIA and learned Eastern religion and all that stuff! Furthermore, when Joseph died (and we don't know how old Jesus was when that must have happened), Jesus as the oldest son of Mary would have been responsible for taking care of her, thus the Carpenter business. This is why, when He was on the cross, He looked at Mary and John (the beloved disciple) and said, "Behold thy son" - He was giving over His responsibility to care for her to His trusted disciple (His own brothers were not yet believers).

The tunic with no seams was indeed a traditional rabbi's garment. But rabbi (teacher) and PRIEST are not necessarily the same thing. The priestly garments described in Exodus were for the priests who served in the Temple. Priests were of the Tribe of Levi. Jesus was of Judah. There were groups or divisions of Levite men and 2-week sessions per group for the daily duties. See Luke 1:5 for example, re the father of John the Baptist... "a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah" - also see verses 8 and 9.

Hope that helps a little more.


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by KEEPER »	Logged

SALTNLITE

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 7
Posts: 315

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #72 on: Late May, last year »

That does help, Keeper! I'm always looking to learn more about my Savior. And yes, I love the story of the adulterous woman, as well as any of the stories about the Jews of the day trying to trick Him. Imagine trying to outwit the Man who saw the laying of the foundations of the earth! Imagine arguing with the Man who WAS the The Word, Who knew all words, Who was there when the law was written. Can you imagine teaching Jesus to "read" when He was there when the languages were created? Or asking questions to see if He knew the law? You're right: if they only knew!

Funny story I read: a woman's husband took some old college buddies to a ski lodge in Colorado for a reunion and they had a blast. One day they decided to get a group photo so the man takes out his camera and asks a man sitting reading in the lobby to take a picture. The man seems annoyed but says nothing. The husband thinks the guy is intimidated by the fancy camera so he explains it to the lone skier. The man holds the camera but doesn't make a move to take a picture. The husband patiently explains it again, offering encouragement: "Here, I've made all the settings; just press this round button." So the man aims and shoots the photo, returns the camera and walks away.

Just then the manager of the hotel runs up. "What do you think you're doing?" he exclaims. "That was Stephen Spielberg!"

LOL!
SNL


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KEEPER

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 27
Age: 51
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1486

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #73 on: Late May, last year »

LOL! I hope Spielberg got a chuckle out of it, too!

Quote

Imagine trying to outwit the Man who saw the laying of the foundations of the earth! Imagine arguing with the Man who WAS the The Word, Who knew all words, Who was there when the law was written. Can you imagine teaching Jesus to "read" when He was there when the languages were created? Or asking questions to see if He knew the law?

I think about that stuff, too! It is hard to imagine being the parent or sibling in their household, isn't it?! I wish the Bible gave us more info about His childhood, I think it would be fascinating. And as for His ministry, we have only a glimpse, sufficient evidence to believe. Maybe only 100 days or so of His entire life, if even that much. I love the statement in John 21:25, "And there are so many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books which were written."


« Last Edit: Late May, last year by KEEPER »	Logged

LEONMARTIN

Disciple

Warm Fuzzies 16
Posts: 489

Re: Spiritual Gifts. Are they for today?

« Reply #74 on: Early June, last year »

SNL,

I owe you an apology, I was wrong about Jesus being formally taught. As I was reading the book of John, I believe the 6th chapter, the Jews wondered how Jesus was reading when He had never been taught. That obviously means I was wrong about that. I am sorry about that. I was taught the story about the robe in Bible College and never verified it. That is my fault, I should know better.

Blessings,
Leon


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