Hi Everyone,

In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrence at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts unless the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
 
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had received but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did not have the power to impart the gifts to others.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

What is often misunderstood by Charismatics/Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone or them it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.

17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV

What did Simon observe? That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts through the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.

Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures. In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.

Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established—
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV

Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.

What had to happen?

An Apostle had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".

Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles.

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV

I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here refers to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift.

Also note in verse 20 that it was through the accompanying signs that the Word of God was confirmed demonstrating that the Apostles had the authority to do what they did and that God was in fact working through them. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.

Blessings!
Walter

Walter, I see the same Scriptures as you, but don't come to the same conclusions.  I believe what is happening in the early church is fulfillment of a few very important things that Jesus initiated.

First, in Matt. 16:13-20, Peter is the first to truly recognize that Jesus is the Messiah - You are THE Messiah, THE Son, of THE God, THE living One.  Jesus understands that The Father has chosen Peter to reveal this to him.  And for that reason (that the Father revealed it to Peter), Jesus tells Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingsom of heaven, and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

[Extra note: Knowing WHO JESUS TRULY IS, is the "rock" upon which the church is built; Jesus Himself is the foundation. Peter is not the "rock"/foundation of the church - Jesus is.  Play on words - Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter (Petros, masculine form) like one of the rocks or stones in the river at Caesarea Philippi. Then Jesus says upon "this rock" - (petras - feminine form) like the HUGE CLIFF ROCK at Caesarea Philippi, which, interestingly enough, had spring water gushing right out of the cliff from underground!  Peter's understanding was the HUGE, amazing point - like that cliff-rock - upon which the Church is built: the gospel of Jesus Christ.]

Second, Acts 1:8 - Jesus sets the ORDER for the Gospel to go out: Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the remotest part of the earth.

Third, this is the order that was followed. Also see Romans 1:16 - the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the JEW FIRST and also to the Greek.

In each place that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, Peter (who had the keys) needed to come and "loose" or open the kingdom to that group of people.  Once it was open, it stayed open ("loosed in heaven" - confirmed by the power of God).

Perfect example is the verses you quoted, Acts 8:14 - "Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them..."  And as you also stated, each of these groups were confirmed by "signs" that confirmed heaven's/God's work among these people.

And even as the gospel spread father and farther, it was customary for the Apostles to begin their preaching in each place IN A SYNAGOG (to the Jew first).  And if they got thrown out, they told the Jews, basically "you've blown it, and we're going to the Gentiles now."

After Jerusalem, and Judea (Jewish areas), then Samaria (half Jewish, mixed blood and mixed religious beliefs), and then the remotest parts of the earth (Gentiles). 

Rome was considered as far away as civilization was known - therefore, Peter (who had the keys) DESIRED to go there to fulfill the mission to the remotest parts of the earth. As you quoted, Romans 1:11, "For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established..."

So, I see that the Apostles, particularly Peter, had to be present to initiate the opening of the kingdom to each people group. God confirmed it with the power of the Holy Spirit and signs.  But once it was open, it stayed open, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit ARE available to the Church today (though IMO, Apostles and Prophets have laid the foundation, so those two are no longer available today.)

That's my opinion.  Maybe you'll get something out of it, maybe you'll totally disagree.  Just putting it out there for some thought.

Blessings.

Amen, Hisservant, Keeper, and Steve. Our God is a god of miracles, a god of infinite ability. I know of no expiration date stamp on His gifts--any of them.

1 Corinthians 121: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant. [...]

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

And it is made clear to us that once we have received these gifts, we are to use them for the glory of God:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

AMEN!

Salt and Light!

I’ll try to give what might be a detailed account in trying to respond to the very good thought provoking  challenge you’ve paused. Thank you. Bro Walter, I don't like dying my hair. 

First off one has to understand why Acts was written and what the main idea is and what place the events of Acts both in the immediate as well as the bigger picture context (God’s timeline for the salvation of mankind) fit in.

As far as I know Pentecostals do not believe that when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost it was for salvation/slavic purposes. He has been there prior to that and people (including the Apostles) had believed/ were saved prior to that day.( from the N.T Jhn. 14: 15-18, 25-26, 15:26-27, 16:4b-11, 20:19-23, Acts 1:4-8). However he's the one who regenerates a dead sinner then and until the day of Jesus Christ! In looking at the promises of the Lord concerning the Holy Spirit by principle, the Holy Spirit/Acts wasn't limited to the immediate recipient. He's the main character/timeless, time transcending factor/aspect of truth. Not all truth is timeless, I'd like to point this out pls.

Indeed, spiritual gifts are for today and the church needs all of them.

Let’s  see what Scriptures say  concerning the gifts of the Spirit.
Please note that this isn’t a matter of your side vs other but rather a pursuit of what TRUTH states in endeavoring to take back what has been stolen from us, of which the understanding and possession of the gifts as the Body of Christ, will enhance edification among us so that we would be equiped for good works of service, reach maturity and unity as we abide in Christ towards being filled with all the fullness of God, as the Body of Christ; whose Christ Jesus is the Head in accordance to his, revealed Mystery.

What was God doing in history  on the timeline through the Holy Spirit/Apostles and the ordaining of the gifts? God was in the business of revealing/fulfilling  a /the Mystery  of Christ in the cause of fulfilling his plan of salvation of mankind.

Which Mystery of Christ? Eph. 3:4-7-12
God was/is in the business of equiping us to do what he's called us to do each in accordance to what is entrusted to them/us, for the good of the  whole Body/kingdom... The Mystery of Christ was unfolding and it had  a foundation(Jesus himself) and it was/is to encompass generations.

It is from this stage we see  Paul using quite some Metaphors(figures of speech) to bring points home. The foundation wasn’t the Apostles since he uses several other metaphors to bring across the same intended meaning which wouldn’t go when interpreted in a  balanced way, which is the right way of interpreting scripture.(Peter did too - 1Pet.2:2-10, this means he understood he wasn't the Rock but Jesus was/is.)


-Holy temple in the Lord

foundation of                                                                 *Jesus C.c.st.  Apostles+prophets                                                                                                                                                                       (Isaiah 28:16)
 Eph. 2:20,
1Cor. 3:10,11
(notice that Paul said, “HE laid the foundation”,
not “I am the foundation”).


-The Body/church                                    Jesus head of the Body
one                                                       Eph. 4:15 Body                                                                                                                                                                               
Eph.4 : 9, 10,11,                                                                                                                         

Eph. 4: 16 -> Body joined together by way of supporting  of every ligament.
Jesus is the Head here so where does an  Apostle/prophet stand
if they’re the foundation?
Surely they’re a ligament somewhere in the Body.

-His whole family/church
Eph. 4: 21

-Body of Christ -> what are the gifts  for? Eph. 4:12

How long will there be  gifts of the Spirit?

Notice ‘until’(the time factor, vs 13) denoting the duration of the practice/application of  these Gifts.
Why that long? Vs 11-12, 13, 19,20.
They’re to perfect the saints for the work of ministry, can not to do it all themselves!

These  gifts will continue to prosper/prevail,  “until we all come to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the stature of the fullness of Christ.” Fulfilled/culminated?  Not yet but as men and women rise up to their callings in Christ and in the power of his Spirit till the day of Jesus Christ, it will come to pass.

NOW in looking at Paul’s and others' Epistles one finds replaying doctrines, (repetition--a tool in writing/communication when used appropriately emphasizes significance; main idea and a need to heed), confirming the Gospel/Mystery of Christ and it’s contents, as foreseen by the prophets and fulfilled partly by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and partly to be fulfilled/culminated by his return. To understand closely the significance of these gifts one has to look at what they are,  why then and why now.

God had laid a foundation(Jesus) of his Church and for it to  be fully equipped he  placed/places in the gifts, by sending his Spirit/through his Spirit. The church starts and is dynamically growing and going on, with all the gifts in use as we today continue  on the foundation(Jesus Christ) through the gifts of the Spirit( including apostles/prophets), which we are to uphold. The  Mystery of Christ and the church has not stopped/become static and that’s why all the gifts are needed today, and he gives them sovereignly with same criteria today as we believe in him through the accounts of the eyewitnesses, his Spirit operating in us today as he did then.

Different people, different time and different geographical locations, signifying the nature of the time transcending factor of the Word--yes even by principle, the limitlessness of the Power/person of the Spirit, the dynamic/growth/growing/progression/prevailing factor of the Church/kingdom of God and the soveregnity of the Most High God.

Mat.13:31-33, Mk.4:30-32,16:15-18,  Lk3:16, Jhn.3:16, Mat.28:18-20, Acts 1:8 -> example of the dynamic/growing/advancing nature of the Kingdom of God.

I hope this helps bring light  a bit of how/what belongs to the Church is to be accommodated/pursued/realized again if we want to see maturity and unity of faith/do our work well in our generation and time the way we ought to. It will continue to be my prayer that we realize and embrace all that which is ours in the Spirit for the  church and don't settle for anything less offered/Deconstructed/Reduced/Revised.

From the days of the prophets/apostles to this day and to the day of Jesus Christ, the kingdom of God  has been/is being taken by force!
Who is the main character in all this? The Holy Spirit! Ever living, ever God! Has he ceased to be? By no means – the gifts will cease when the work on earth ceases/the day he ceases – will he? No. What then? The gifts won't be needed on the day of Jesus Christ.

*Jesus Chief corner stone.

"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy."


Two thoughts:
No question the gifts of the spirit are here and being used. They are Alive and well.

No question that the gifts are sometimes misused. Not everything we see if coming from God.
Emotions and a strong (sincere) desire to have those gifts can decieve sometimes.

 

One problem with the many Apostles, Revelation says there are 12 pillar on the wall of the new Jerusalem, for the 12 Apostles. It does not say the many Apostles, but the 12. That seems an important point to me.

Blessings,
Leon

Agreed.

However the 12 are also called "Apostles of the Lamb",thus seperating them as the foundational apostles. They in turn also sent forth apostles.

KP

NM,

While I agree that the gifts are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, the explanation of the Apostles is still falling short. Let me explain.


While I agree that the 70 fulfill the requirement of being sent, they were never referred to as Apostles, this is an assumption on our part.


Those who followed Jesus were known as disciples, not Apostles. A study will show the Biblical context of the word Apostle better than the explanation we have given it. Disciples only became Apostles once two things had happened, first they were given power by Jesus, and second they were sent out in His name, by Him personally. He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, thus fulfilling the requirements. Matthias was Peter deciding to replace Judas. Jesus did not personally send him out, Peter did. This makes the original number still 12.

There may well have been many Apostles, but only 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ. Those sent out by the Apostles were Apostles of Peter, or Paul, etc.. Jesus picked and sent out His own Apostles, everyone else belonged to someone else.

We have changed the definition of many of the Biblical offices so that we can claim them today, but Biblical context will not ever lead you astray. Look at what we have made the office of Prophet today. It is a mere shadow of the Biblical meaning. Why? So we can have Prophets in our church. It is very sad. Now we are starting to do the same with the office of Apostle.

Just my thoughts,
Leon